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Edward 'Duckfat' Bradshaw

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Foxcote
Warwick
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1 of 31  Fri 19th Oct 2012 4:45pm  
Member: Joined Jan 2012  Total posts:968

I found this sad tale looking for books as usual. Thanks to the folks that put in the homework so that we could learn about 'Duckfat'. Trial of Edward Bradshaw
Edward 'Duckfat' Bradshaw
Midland Red
Cherwell
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2 of 31  Fri 19th Oct 2012 6:19pm  
Moderator: Joined Jan 2010  Total posts:4195

Is there any information regarding Mr Lines who was fatally wounded? I have searched the burial registers for St John, Holy Trinity and St Michael without finding him Would appreciate guidance on finding out more about him as I have a direct link to a Lines family - the head was a grocer in Spon End in 1818, where he died in 1843 Hope sks can assist Oh my
Edward 'Duckfat' Bradshaw
dutchman
Spon End
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3 of 31  Fri 19th Oct 2012 7:57pm  
Member: Joined Mar 2010  Total posts:3086

I strongly suspect it's a misspelling of 'Lynes', one of whom was a watch finisher living next-door-but-one to the Malt Shovel. By the way the name of the pub derives from a barley malt house which once occupied the area behind the pub and was last used as a funeral parlour! Oh my There's no doubt that Bradshaw was guilty of killing Mr Lines (or Lynes), only of whether it was premeditated or not.
Edward 'Duckfat' Bradshaw
Foxcote
Warwick
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4 of 31  Fri 19th Oct 2012 8:53pm  
Member: Joined Jan 2012  Total posts:968

Well Midland Red, I have found 'Linesey's' and will send the details and hope that you can find some fresh tracks from it. In 1841 census, two years before the incident, I can see two lots of Lines and a death. The death of William Lines, 1843, Oct/Nov/Dec; Vol. 16, p.277, the death certificate may reveal more. 1841 census, William Lines, born 1776, (shopkeeper) wife Mary, b. 1786 and Charlotte, born 1826 in Spon End. However, in 1842 census, William Lines b. 1826, (so aged 15 years) Elizabeth b. 1826, Charlotte born 1839 and Emma born 1840, living Spon End, South side.
Edward 'Duckfat' Bradshaw
Foxcote
Warwick
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5 of 31  Fri 19th Oct 2012 9:48pm  
Member: Joined Jan 2012  Total posts:968

Just re-checked, there is William Lines, buried 4th October 1843, age 71 years, St. Michael, so that should be easier to check the parish burials now.
Edward 'Duckfat' Bradshaw
Midland Red
Cherwell
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6 of 31  Fri 19th Oct 2012 9:50pm  
Moderator: Joined Jan 2010  Total posts:4195

Thanks for the speedy response
On 19th Oct 2012 8:53pm, Foxcote said: Well Midland Red, I have found 'Linesey's' and will send the details and hope that you can find some fresh tracks from it. In 1841 census, two years before the incident, I can see two lots of Lines and a death. The death of William Lines, 1843, Oct/Nov/Dec; Vol. 16, p.277, the death certificate may reveal more. 1841 census, William Lines, born 1776, (shopkeeper) wife Mary, b. 1786 and Charlotte, born 1826 in Spon End.
The above William is my 3x great grandfather
On 19th Oct 2012 8:53pm, Foxcote said: However, in 1842 census, William Lines b. 1826, (so aged 15 years) Elizabeth b. 1826, Charlotte born 1839 and Emma born 1840, living Spon End, South side.
I don't know who this Lines family is [I do now - see post 9 below!]
Edward 'Duckfat' Bradshaw
Foxcote
Warwick
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7 of 31  Fri 19th Oct 2012 10:07pm  
Member: Joined Jan 2012  Total posts:968

Seems a coincidence though, same surname, same street, no older head of family on the census, there was a Charlotte born 1826 in your ancestors family. Could it be relatives? Did the murdered man have a brother I wonder in the vicinity? Don't think I am allowed to print the census out on here for you. Oh just looked, loads of Lines. 1841, John Lines, Great Butcher Row, age 55 1841, Thomas Lines, St. John Baptist, b. 1801 1841, John Lines, St John Baptist, b. 1811 The younger William Lines could be a relation of these.
Edward 'Duckfat' Bradshaw
Midland Red
Cherwell
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8 of 31  Sat 20th Oct 2012 8:42am  
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On 19th Oct 2012 8:53pm, Foxcote said: However, in 1842 census, William Lines b. 1826 , ( so aged 15 years) Elizabeth b. 1826, Charlotte born 1839 and Emma born 1840, living Spon End, South side.
It was getting late last night when I first looked at this Oh my I recall now that the 1841 Census is wrongly enumerated as both William and Elizabeth were 25(ish) not 15(ish), and this William is my 2xggfather, son of William Lines (d.1843) who was a shopkeeper in Spon End In 1851 William and Elizabeth were in Sovereign Place, and in 1861 and 1871 at 105 Spon End - bmd certificates support all this I only have one marriage for my 3xggfather (William to Mary) in 1812, and five children therefrom - he was shown as a widower, so having been previously wed, he may have had other children, one of whom might have been the victim of the incident PS I've been looking at Family Member Trees on Ancestry to see whether I could glean any further information on this line (pardon the pun!) As a word of warning to anyone researching their family tree using these, they are most unreliable - looking through common Lines links, I've been amazed at the number of mistakes where different Lines families have been mixed up. For example, I've seen a member tree for William Lines (b.1842) (my great grandnewphew in all this) being shown as died 1918 in Colorado, USA, when he actually died in Gulson Road Hospital in 1935 - he was featured in the press locally for being married for over 70 years!
Edward 'Duckfat' Bradshaw
Foxcote
Warwick
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9 of 31  Sat 20th Oct 2012 11:53am  
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Yes, I was getting a bit 'punchy' with it all last night and went to bed thinking about it all, thanks for your update this morning. I wasn't going to delve any further cos it is YOUR family and you did only ask about the burial in the first instant. However, I couldn't help another look. It did puzzle me with the first mistake with the '15 year olds' To begin with I thought they were twins Roll eyes Also, the victim is only mentioned as 'Mr. Lynes' with is frustrating without a christian name. I have looked through the various parish death records for September 1820 and can't find a suitable candidate. Unless we have both, just not found it I can only conclude that there is another spelling mistake on the parish burial records, Tine, Tyne, Lime etc. I'll have a look in the newspapers for a detailed article of the trial if I can find one, something might come up. Seeing as you have 'ancestry' look up Bradshaw on the criminal registers, it doesn't mention 'murder'only larceny/burglary. Frustratingly, I can't find the same court trial as the Herbert History team did, the date is a bit too early. Would have liked to have read the details of the hearing.
Edward 'Duckfat' Bradshaw
Foxcote
Warwick
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10 of 31  Sat 20th Oct 2012 2:08pm  
Member: Joined Jan 2012  Total posts:968

Just to confirm the sentence with no sign of Mr. Line's fatality which is odd... 1821 Sentence of Bradshaw
Edward 'Duckfat' Bradshaw
Foxcote
Warwick
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11 of 31  Sat 20th Oct 2012 2:39pm  
Member: Joined Jan 2012  Total posts:968

Do you know so far Midland Red, unless it says murder in the article of the trial, I don't reckon he murdered Mr Lynes. That's why we can't find him buried in 1820. In the free reading on Google Books of 'The History of Coventry' by Benjamin Poole, page 166 refers to it as 'the cutting and wounding' of Mr Lynes. And that's why it only states larceny on his criminal registers on Ancestry. Can't be positive because we haven't yet got the transcription of the trial. What do you make of it?
Edward 'Duckfat' Bradshaw
dutchman
Spon End
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12 of 31  Sat 20th Oct 2012 3:29pm  
Member: Joined Mar 2010  Total posts:3086

Some sources say the robbery took place at the Punch Bowl (104) and others say it took place at the Malt Shovel (96). A 'W. Lynes' watch finisher was living at 105 next door to the Punch Bowl in 1874, although this was more than fifty years after the robbery.
Edward 'Duckfat' Bradshaw
Foxcote
Warwick
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13 of 31  Sat 20th Oct 2012 3:43pm  
Member: Joined Jan 2012  Total posts:968

Thanks Dutchman. A lot of the details do seem conflicting don't they. I reckon Midland Red needs Morse on this one. Maybe someone will come up with the trial transcripts. But 'Robbery' seems to arise first and Mr Lynes' wounding almost secondary, which seems odd.
Edward 'Duckfat' Bradshaw
Midland Red
Cherwell
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14 of 31  Sat 20th Oct 2012 4:13pm  
Moderator: Joined Jan 2010  Total posts:4195

On 20th Oct 2012 2:39pm, Foxcote said: Do you know so far Midland Red, unless it says murder in the article of the trial, it don't reckon he murdered Mr Lynes. That's why we can't find him buried in 1820. In the free reading on Google Books of 'The History of Coventry' by Benjamin Poole, page 166 refers to it as 'the cutting and wounding' of Mr Lynes. And that' s why it only states larceny on his criminal registers on Ancestry. Can't be positive because we haven't yet got the transcription of the trial. What do you make of it?
Not quite understanding this - Rayanne Byatt's article which you linked in the opening post clear states "A neighbour, Mr Lines, hearing the men escape, came to help the landlord but was fatally stabbed trying to disarm Edward of a knife he was holding" That's why I went looking for a burial in the days and weeks afterwards, with no luck
On 20th Oct 2012 3:29pm, dutchman said: Some sources say the robbery took place at the Punch Bowl (104) and others say it took place at the Malt Shovel (96). A 'W. Lynes' watch finisher was living at 105 next door to the Punch Bowl in 1874, although this was more than fifty years after the robbery.
Yes, he's my 2xggfather, son of William (d.1843) who was a grocer with a shop in Spon End (1841 census)
Edward 'Duckfat' Bradshaw
Midland Red
Cherwell
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15 of 31  Sat 20th Oct 2012 4:18pm  
Moderator: Joined Jan 2010  Total posts:4195

On 20th Oct 2012 2:08pm, Foxcote said: Just to confirm the sentence with no sign of Mr. Line's fatality which is odd... 1821 Sentence of Bradshaw
According to this too, the sentence was only for burglary Oh my British Executions
Edward 'Duckfat' Bradshaw

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