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Courts and Houses in Cross Cheaping

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MikeG
Leicestershire
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1 of 17  Thu 15th Feb 2018 9:39pm  
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When John Quail was married in 1862, he gave his address as 2 Court 5 House Cross Cheaping. Now in the 1861 census, I can find Cross Cheaping, but there is no mention of Courts and Houses, or I can find a 2 Court 5 House, but it doesn't appear to be near Cross Cheaping! Can anyone help? An 1861 census reference for where this place actually was would be great. If not, can anyone help me to unravel the mystery? - Mike

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Courts and Houses in Cross Cheaping
PhilipInCoventry
Holbrooks
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2 of 17  Thu 15th Feb 2018 10:14pm  
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Hello & welcome MikeG Wave Let's hope we have some response to your post. I shall mark your post as a question so as to highlight. Best wishes.
Courts and Houses in Cross Cheaping
Helen F
Warrington
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3 of 17  Thu 15th Feb 2018 10:34pm  
Member: Joined Mar 2013  Total posts:981

Hi. There's a Court 5 just south of the river, between Palmer Lane and Cross Cheaping but I can't see any numbers. There is also a Court 2 on the west side of the road and it does have a number 5. Also known as Bradshaw Yard in 1850. Next door to Dickins & Co Tanners in about 1898. Fire insurance map at the British Library Choose the Zoomable version and look on the right side of the map below the river. If you look at the Library Pictures and search for 'S.E. view showing' you'll see two images very similar. I think that number 5 was the roof in the bottom right hand corner. It was a block of 3 and number 5 was the closest section to the camera. Edited by member, 16th Feb 2018 4:05 pm
Courts and Houses in Cross Cheaping
Helen F
Warrington
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4 of 17  Fri 16th Feb 2018 11:04am  
Member: Joined Mar 2013  Total posts:981

Mike, are you having one of those days where you put something down in plain sight and then can't see it for looking? Lol Those with access to the census will turn up.
Courts and Houses in Cross Cheaping
Annewiggy
Tamworth
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5 of 17  Fri 16th Feb 2018 2:09pm  
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Hi Mike. Just a few bits I have come across. John and Jane had a short wedding announcement in the Coventry Herald and the Coventry Times in 1862. No address is given. I have looked at the 1861 census, their are a few courts mentioned and they seem to be at the Broadgate end of Cross Cheaping The house next to the courts is 6 Broadgate. This is the route from the 1871 census, they did not do this in 1861. This also suggests that the courts were near Broadgate, although it is difficult to pick out No2 Court House 5. I think they must have been near the Dolphin Inn which is number 5. In 1861 2 Cross Cheaping was a drapers shop, no residents. I have failed to find John Quail on the 1861 census. Looking at Ancestry I believe they emigrated shortly after they married so no chance of finding them in 1871.
Courts and Houses in Cross Cheaping
MikeG
Leicestershire
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6 of 17  Fri 16th Feb 2018 2:30pm  
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On 15th Feb 2018 10:34pm, Helen F said: Hi. There's a Court 5 just south of the river, between Palmer Lane and Cross Cheaping but I can't see any numbers. There is also a Court 2 on the west side of the road and it does have a number 5. Also known as Bradshaw Yard in 1850. Next door to Dickins & Co Tanners in about 1888. Fire insurance map at the British Library Choose the Zoomable version and look on the right side of the map below the river. If you look at the Library Pictures and search for 'S.E. view showing' you'll see two images very similar. I think that number 5 was the roof in the bottom right hand corner. It was a block of 3 and number 5 was the closest section to the camera. Edited by member, 16th Feb 2018 6:58 am
Thanks very much for your reply. The map was most helpful - I can see where Court 2 House 5 was, to the west of Cross Cheaping, which is running North/South. The picture was also very helpful, giving an idea of what the arrangement of houses was. My problem now is to sort out how it is covered in the census. Usually, the way to do this kind of thing is to see the route that the Census Enumerator walked. Unfortunately, it doesn't look as if Ancestry included these pages for Coventry Holy Trinity, so it's difficult to see how it goes from Cross Cheaping to the various houses. Perhaps the Enumerator assumed that they were just "shops" and were unoccupied. Courts and houses near Well Street were enumerated, but perhaps the Cross Cheaping Enumerator was too lazy ! If anyone with access to the census can help, I'd appreciate it. Thanks again for the map & picture references - they were most helpful. Mike
Courts and Houses in Cross Cheaping
Helen F
Warrington
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7 of 17  Fri 16th Feb 2018 2:41pm  
Member: Joined Mar 2013  Total posts:981

The court would have been accessed from number 22 Cross Cheaping. As Anne indicates above the routes were tortuous. I think they must have numbered the courts around 1850-1860, for them to be still depicted with a name in 1850 but recorded with a number in 1861. That may have screwed up the census techniques.
Courts and Houses in Cross Cheaping
MikeG
Leicestershire
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8 of 17  Fri 16th Feb 2018 2:48pm  
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On 16th Feb 2018 2:09pm, Annewiggy said: Hi Mike. Just a few bits I have come across. John and Jane had a short wedding announcement in the Coventry Herald and the Coventry Times in 1862. No address is given. I have looked at the 1861 census, their are a few courts mentioned and they seem to be at the Broadgate end of Cross Cheaping The house next to the courts is 6 Broadgate. This is the route from the 1871 census, they did not do this in 1861. This also suggests that the courts were near Broadgate, although it is difficult to pick out No2 Court House 5. I think they must have been near the Dolphin Inn which is number 5. In 1861 2 Cross Cheaping was a drapers shop, no residents. I have failed to find John Quail on the 1861 census. Looking at Ancestry I believe they emigrated shortly after they married so no chance of finding them in 1871.
Hi - thank you very much for investigating for me. All your facts about John and Jane are correct - they did indeed emigrate to Australia, and their descendants today are interested in finding out more. I'm trying to help them. Your pointer to the Enumerator route in 1871 was most helpful. Although I cannot be certain that the Enumerator in 1861 took the same path, it is nevertheless useful to see that the courts fell in Enumeration District no.1, which means that the courts that I found originally, in District 3, are the wrong ones. The map to which Helen pointed me shows where Court 2, and within it House 5, was. It doesn't appear to be explicitly mentioned as such in the census. The map shows Cross Cheaping house numbers, but these are separate from the Courts and Houses. So I'm wondering whether the Cross Cheaping Courts were missed from the census in 1861. John Quail is a bit of an enigma. He has arrived from the USA some years earlier (not sure how many), marries Jane Flowers in 1862 in Coventry, then they emigrate to Australia ! A whirlwind romance? Or did they know each other from earlier times? All a bit of a mystery. But then that's what makes Family History an interesting hobby Smile Thanks again for your help - most useful. Mike
Courts and Houses in Cross Cheaping
MikeG
Leicestershire
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9 of 17  Fri 16th Feb 2018 2:59pm  
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On 16th Feb 2018 2:41pm, Helen F said: The court would have been accessed from number 22 Cross Cheaping. As Anne indicates above the routes were tortuous. I think they must have numbered the courts around 1850-1860, for them to be still depicted with a name in 1850 but recorded with a number in 1861. That may have screwed up the census techniques.
Hi - thanks again for your help. It's difficult to put myself in the mind of the Enumerator. Although as you say he probably accessed the courts from number 22, whether he dived into the courts when he reached 22, or whether he carried on going, then went back later to go into the courts, I can't make out. There is a Court 2 House 5 that follows on from a reference to Bancroft Lane, which in turn follows 6 Broadgate. Perhaps this is the house that I'm seeking. 5 Court 2 is an upholsterer, but I suppose my man John, a shoemaker, could be staying with anyone as a lodger. I've been extremely pleased with the helpful replies that I have received on this forum. Many thanks to all. Mike
Courts and Houses in Cross Cheaping
MikeG
Leicestershire
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10 of 17  Fri 16th Feb 2018 3:01pm  
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On 15th Feb 2018 10:14pm, PhilipInCoventry said: Hello & welcome MikeG Wave Let's hope we have some response to your post. I shall mark your post as a question so as to highlight. Best wishes.
Yes, I have had excellent responses, for which I am most grateful. Many thanks to all who have replied. Mike
Courts and Houses in Cross Cheaping
Helen F
Warrington
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11 of 17  Fri 16th Feb 2018 3:39pm  
Member: Joined Mar 2013  Total posts:981

Bancroft Lane was the bigger route between 19 and 20. It led into the area that later became the foundry but in 1850 was a long row of very small terraced houses. Smaller even than Court 2 number 5. Potentially there was a route through to the backs of number 3, 4 and 5 from Bancroft but there were buildings in the way on the 1850 map. Who knows, by that point they may have just been clearing the land for the foundry and the route might have been easy. But yes, Court Number 2 would have followed on from Bancroft Lane, even if the enumerator had to go back out onto Cross Cheaping and into the court. Edited by member, 16th Feb 2018 3:48 pm
Courts and Houses in Cross Cheaping
Helen F
Warrington
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12 of 17  Fri 16th Feb 2018 3:56pm  
Member: Joined Mar 2013  Total posts:981

In 1850, number 5 looked out the back to a large garden with fruit trees, parterres, vegetable plots, paths and hedging, all the way to the river. I don't know if the house had access to it but it would have looked a lot nicer than it did by 1898. The land was owned in the dim and distant past by the Catesby family (of the Gun Powder Plot infamy). Edited by member, 16th Feb 2018 4:04 pm
Courts and Houses in Cross Cheaping
MikeG
Leicestershire
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13 of 17  Fri 16th Feb 2018 4:19pm  
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Hi Helen, Thanks for that. How interesting about the Catesby family. Further back than the Gunpowder Plot, a Catesby was servant to William Lord Hastings, before he was executed by Richard III. Catesby did pretty well out of the death of his master, so there is speculation that he was implicit in the accusation of Hastings that he was a traitor. Hastings and Catesby lived in Leicestershire, which is where John Quail was born. All coincidence, I'm sure. If House 5 was on a large pleasant plot, it would make sense for the owner to take in lodgers. John was probably not there for very long. His fiancée Jane was living not far away on Priory Row. She says on her marriage that she was a domestic servant, and I understand that there were some nice town houses on Priory Row, so that would also make sense. Thanks again for your help - it's all most interesting. Mike
Courts and Houses in Cross Cheaping
Helen F
Warrington
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14 of 17  Fri 16th Feb 2018 4:37pm  
Member: Joined Mar 2013  Total posts:981

The land came into the family through that event (I think). I can't remember if they still owned it by the time of the plot but the paperwork was preserved because of the estate being taken into crown hands. There's a book by Nat Alcock who tries to untangle what the Catesby's owned. It has a picture of what the street frontage looked like in the early part of the 1800s.
Courts and Houses in Cross Cheaping
MikeG
Leicestershire
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15 of 17  Sat 17th Feb 2018 10:06am  
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Thanks, Helen. Sounds an interesting book. I couldn't see an obvious title when searching Google Books. Perhaps it's part of a more general work. Mike
Courts and Houses in Cross Cheaping

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