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Kaga simpson
Peacehaven, East Sussex
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46 of 48  Thu 4th Jun 2020 10:45am  
Member: Joined Sep 2014  Total posts:3414

Built in the 13th century the manor was more of a palace for Queen (Isabella) than a castle with its great lavish park of fields and woods, its fishponds and game, but it was the most shameful time in England's history. But before its enclosure it was surrounded by a moat, part of which I believe became the 'ducking pool'. Also a second moat outside the city walls, 'Crow moat' so called, about the year 1700, tall elms, the moat more square than oblong, whilst the island within was oblong shape, the moat (35 x 25 yards) was crossed at the eastern end by a bridge. At the other end was a building in a enclosed field over a smaller bridge into Crow Lane, not a straight line, Albion Street not built then.
Buildings - Cheylesmore Manor
Helen F
Warrington
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47 of 48  Thu 12th Aug 2021 10:03pm  
Moderator: Joined Mar 2013  Total posts:2876

I'm sure that most of you will know all this but it's new to me. I've often read snippets about the original manor park but didn't understand it. That it was south of the wall was as far as I knew. The red line represents where experts think the Red Ditch ran. Notice how it cuts through both Little Park Street and Much Park Street. I'd wondered how they both ended up called Park Street, especially when Much Park Street kinks to the east before it joins the London Road. If they stopped officially at the Red Ditch, then the park also started there and they both enter the park. The original location of the town ditch (pre town wall) puts the manor house clearly inside the deer park and outside the town. I'd been watching something about deer parks and their paling fence. The idea was to create a fence the deer could get into the park (free stock) but they couldn't jump out again. This involved either a tall fence with the odd break for the deer to get in with a deep hollow on the inside of them. Alternatively a lower fence could be set on top of a ramp of soil, with a steep slope or wall on the inside. Another source said that deer parks were rounded, suggesting that it used fewer palings but I'm guessing that it was to give the deer somewhere to go rather than a dead end corner, where they might panic and hurt themselves. So I looked at the maps and couldn't see the park till I zoomed out. The green line follows clear features in the landscape. The west is obvious but there are some different possibilities to the east. The green dotted line takes the west curve all the way to the Red Ditch near Ford's. Notice how the roads on the west side curve round the park from The Grove to Greyfriars Lane. We tend to think that the roads after the Romans were illogically non linear but just because you can't see the obstacle that shaped the road anymore it doesn't mean it wasn't there when they were laid down. To be continued.
Buildings - Cheylesmore Manor
Helen F
Warrington
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48 of 48  Fri 13th Aug 2021 2:41pm  
Moderator: Joined Mar 2013  Total posts:2876

Resumed. Now it gets more speculative. The solid green line is the post city wall extent of the park but it’s probable that it originally extended to the Red Ditch. That ditch was a clear feature in the topography even as late as the early 1900s. Up the right side we have the London Road direction marked in a pink dashed line. What was the point of the road kicking west into the park and out again at the Red Ditch when there were no properties there? It would have necessitated 2 manned gates, so logically the road would have continued further north towards either Gosford Street or Jordan Well. The route is very speculative. I do know that there was a substantial ditch running north from Gosford Street (from the Mermaid) that gave rise to rumours of secret tunnels from White Friars. More likely is that it was a drainage or defensive ditch but from the exaggerated accounts it’s hard to tell which or indeed how old it was. However if it was a very early defensive ditch it might be logical that the London Road once entered the city via a gate house very near the Mermaid. Once Much Park Street was extended then it became logical to cut the London Road shorter and join it up to the mostly wider street. The north ends of two park streets were narrow, in keeping with them being non significant roads to start with. It was much later that the north ends were widened to make the turns into the main street easier. All that said, the whole London Road might be a later feature and may not have had the importance it did by the time the New Gate was built. To go back to the west route of the park fence, you see Warwick Lane curve and then the road runs straight as it becomes Greyfriars Lane. Curiously the pink dotted line shows that you can almost draw a straight line from Cheylesmore manor up to the entrance of the priory in Butchers Row. The front row of Broadgate gets in the way but wasn’t there while the castle was still standing. Greyfriars Lane follows what was probably the castle/town wall (red dashes). To the north and east the boundaries of the castle/town are not very clear at all, so speculation about that side needs a big pinch of salt. The same applies to the park boundary on that side. To be continued.
Buildings - Cheylesmore Manor

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